Discussion:
[Tapestry-developer] Tapestry and RSS
Andrew C. Oliver
2002-12-18 15:34:24 UTC
Permalink
While I don't think my opinion should count for much on this. I am in
the URL control crowd.
Take a look at what Cocoon does with its sitemap (xml.apache.org/cocoon).

URLs are pretty important in some companies and Can be a powerful tool
for usability.

-Andy
i'm reposting this, as it never made it to the list :)
hi,
i don't know if i count as a "user" but i do like short urls, that tell
about the structure of a site's information. i like it when i can easily
navigate around if i get a 404 (ok, linkrot is bad too, but it's a fact
of life). or jump straight to something i know is there, but have not
bookmarked it (eg. i can jump to the javadoc of java.lang.String without
having it bookmarked, or even bringing up the page)...
as a site-builder, i like nice urls that i can send out in an email
without it breaking (less than 80 chars) on certain mail readers... or
print on a piece of paper and a user can type it in... simple urls make
log analysis easier too.
call me weird, but other's share my opinion - here's a couple of links
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990321.html
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/web/library/us-cranky8.html?dwzone=web
http://www.bohmann.dk/articles/making_urls_predictable.html
i think ugly urls are against the spirit of the original concept - use
them if you have no other option...
http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html
or take your mailing address for example - yeah, it could be
98052, USA" still looks better to me :)
viktor
I double-dog dare you to find me a user (I mean an end user, not a client
who
think s/he knows "what user's want") ... find me a user that actually
cares
about the URLs.
They might care if they can't bookmark a URL and come back later. They
might
care if the URL is broken. But I double-dog dare you to find me a user
that
cares about the difference between "/products/food/fruit/apple" and
"/app?
service=catalog&sp=food&sp=fruit&sp=apple". We're not
talking
telegrams here; nobody's paying by the letter (well, maybe on WAP).
The only difference is that users of the Tapestry app will be less
inclined to
second guess the URL construction by manually hacking the URL, and
therefore
less likely to be frustrated when it doesn't work.
Also, the fact that users are trying to second guess and circumvent your
application means that your app has a usuability problem ... and it isn't
the
format of your URLs.
You Are Not Your Users.
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Howard M. Lewis Ship
2002-12-19 13:41:55 UTC
Permalink
So far, it's been either pretty URLs or templates that work in WYSIWYG
editors; I haven't found a way (even using the <base> tag) to have it both
ways. Every time I change to long URLs, encoding all the information in the
path info instead of in query parameters, something important breaks for
somebody. In addition, the way service parameters are encoded now (as
objects encoded as strings, rather than just strings) is somewhat reliant on
using query parameters.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <acoliver-1oDqGaOF3Lkdnm+***@public.gmane.org>
To: <phraktle-***@public.gmane.org>
Cc: "Tapestry Contrib" <tapestry-contrib-5NWGOfrQmneRv+***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Tapestry-contrib] Fwd: Re: [Tapestry-developer] Tapestry and
RSS
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
While I don't think my opinion should count for much on this. I am in
the URL control crowd.
Take a look at what Cocoon does with its sitemap (xml.apache.org/cocoon).
URLs are pretty important in some companies and Can be a powerful tool
for usability.
-Andy
i'm reposting this, as it never made it to the list :)
hi,
i don't know if i count as a "user" but i do like short urls, that tell
about the structure of a site's information. i like it when i can easily
navigate around if i get a 404 (ok, linkrot is bad too, but it's a fact
of life). or jump straight to something i know is there, but have not
bookmarked it (eg. i can jump to the javadoc of java.lang.String without
having it bookmarked, or even bringing up the page)...
as a site-builder, i like nice urls that i can send out in an email
without it breaking (less than 80 chars) on certain mail readers... or
print on a piece of paper and a user can type it in... simple urls make
log analysis easier too.
call me weird, but other's share my opinion - here's a couple of links
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990321.html
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/web/library/us-cranky8.html?dwzone=w
eb
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.bohmann.dk/articles/making_urls_predictable.html
i think ugly urls are against the spirit of the original concept - use
them if you have no other option...
http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html
or take your mailing address for example - yeah, it could be
98052, USA" still looks better to me :)
viktor
I double-dog dare you to find me a user (I mean an end user, not a client
who
think s/he knows "what user's want") ... find me a user that actually
cares
about the URLs.
They might care if they can't bookmark a URL and come back later. They
might
care if the URL is broken. But I double-dog dare you to find me a user
that
cares about the difference between "/products/food/fruit/apple" and
"/app?
service=catalog&amp;sp=food&amp;sp=fruit&amp;sp=apple". We're not
talking
telegrams here; nobody's paying by the letter (well, maybe on WAP).
The only difference is that users of the Tapestry app will be less
inclined to
second guess the URL construction by manually hacking the URL, and
therefore
less likely to be frustrated when it doesn't work.
Also, the fact that users are trying to second guess and circumvent your
application means that your app has a usuability problem ... and it isn't
the
format of your URLs.
You Are Not Your Users.
--
--
http://fastmail.fm - The professional email service
-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.NET email is sponsored by: Order your Holiday Geek Presents Now!
Green Lasers, Hip Geek T-Shirts, Remote Control Tanks, Caffeinated Soap,
MP3 Players, XBox Games, Flying Saucers, WebCams, Smart Putty.
T H I N K G E E K . C O M http://www.thinkgeek.com/sf/
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Andrew C. Oliver
2002-12-19 13:51:04 UTC
Permalink
I understand. I just suggest people do care about such things. Myself
included. That is all.

-Andy
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
So far, it's been either pretty URLs or templates that work in WYSIWYG
editors; I haven't found a way (even using the <base> tag) to have it both
ways. Every time I change to long URLs, encoding all the information in the
path info instead of in query parameters, something important breaks for
somebody. In addition, the way service parameters are encoded now (as
objects encoded as strings, rather than just strings) is somewhat reliant on
using query parameters.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Tapestry-contrib] Fwd: Re: [Tapestry-developer] Tapestry and
RSS
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
While I don't think my opinion should count for much on this. I am in
the URL control crowd.
Take a look at what Cocoon does with its sitemap (xml.apache.org/cocoon).
URLs are pretty important in some companies and Can be a powerful tool
for usability.
-Andy
i'm reposting this, as it never made it to the list :)
hi,
i don't know if i count as a "user" but i do like short urls, that tell
about the structure of a site's information. i like it when i can easily
navigate around if i get a 404 (ok, linkrot is bad too, but it's a fact
of life). or jump straight to something i know is there, but have not
bookmarked it (eg. i can jump to the javadoc of java.lang.String without
having it bookmarked, or even bringing up the page)...
as a site-builder, i like nice urls that i can send out in an email
without it breaking (less than 80 chars) on certain mail readers... or
print on a piece of paper and a user can type it in... simple urls make
log analysis easier too.
call me weird, but other's share my opinion - here's a couple of links
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990321.html
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/web/library/us-cranky8.html?dwzone=w
eb
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.bohmann.dk/articles/making_urls_predictable.html
i think ugly urls are against the spirit of the original concept - use
them if you have no other option...
http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html
or take your mailing address for example - yeah, it could be
WA
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
98052, USA" still looks better to me :)
viktor
I double-dog dare you to find me a user (I mean an end user, not a
client
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
who
think s/he knows "what user's want") ... find me a user that actually
cares
about the URLs.
They might care if they can't bookmark a URL and come back later. They
might
care if the URL is broken. But I double-dog dare you to find me a user
that
cares about the difference between "/products/food/fruit/apple" and
"/app?
service=catalog&amp;sp=food&amp;sp=fruit&amp;sp=apple". We're not
talking
telegrams here; nobody's paying by the letter (well, maybe on WAP).
The only difference is that users of the Tapestry app will be less
inclined to
second guess the URL construction by manually hacking the URL, and
therefore
less likely to be frustrated when it doesn't work.
Also, the fact that users are trying to second guess and circumvent
your
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
application means that your app has a usuability problem ... and it
isn't
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
the
format of your URLs.
You Are Not Your Users.
--
--
http://fastmail.fm - The professional email service
-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.NET email is sponsored by: Order your Holiday Geek Presents Now!
Green Lasers, Hip Geek T-Shirts, Remote Control Tanks, Caffeinated Soap,
MP3 Players, XBox Games, Flying Saucers, WebCams, Smart Putty.
T H I N K G E E K . C O M http://www.thinkgeek.com/sf/
_______________________________________________
Tapestry-contrib mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tapestry-contrib
-------------------------------------------------------
This SF.NET email is sponsored by: Geek Gift Procrastinating?
Get the perfect geek gift now! Before the Holidays pass you by.
T H I N K G E E K . C O M http://www.thinkgeek.com/sf/
_______________________________________________
Tapestry-contrib mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tapestry-contrib
-------------------------------------------------------
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Get the perfect geek gift now! Before the Holidays pass you by.
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Scot Doyle
2002-12-19 15:52:40 UTC
Permalink
Howard,

I have an idea for the URL's that you could probably
either confirm or shoot down pretty quickly.

What about the way Amazon does it? Of course I don't
understand all the details, but here are some basics:

1. Here is a pretty URL that goes to a unique page,
but is stateless
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0618260587

2. One a person goes to that page, state is added
automatically so taht it looks like
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0618260587/102-3321578-2400930

3. The URL actually contains state, but without using
the querystring indicator, i.e. "?"

Now, there are two key points about this form of URL.
A) It looks like a stateless URL so all search engines
will crawl it and record it. B)

4. If someone else was to go to Amazon using the URL
in #2 above, it would be silently converted to
represent their session with Amazon, not mine. In
other words, the part of the URL that has state would
cause an internal Tapestry exception, since it would
be invalid. Then Tapestry would create a new session
(Visit) and attach it to the end of the URL.

Now, as I see it, there are two very important
objectives Amazon has achieved by using this form of
URL.

1. There is no query string (i.e. "?") indicator.
This means that all search engines will now be able to
catalog my site. In e-commerce, this is absolutely
essential.

2. I can send this URL to someone else, or bookmark
it, and it will still work. Again, this is essential
for e-commerce.

Now, on the downside, I admit that the URL is not
pretty in the sense that it is hierarchical, but it
would at least achieve two of the three goals.

Also, please know that I have not developed any
Tapestry applications. I have just completed my first
read-through of the developers guide, and will start
later this month.

Thanks for your consideration,
Scot
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
I understand. I just suggest people do care about
such things. Myself
included. That is all.
-Andy
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
So far, it's been either pretty URLs or templates
that work in WYSIWYG
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
editors; I haven't found a way (even using the
<base> tag) to have it both
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
ways. Every time I change to long URLs, encoding
all the information in the
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
path info instead of in query parameters, something
important breaks for
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
somebody. In addition, the way service parameters
are encoded now (as
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
objects encoded as strings, rather than just
strings) is somewhat reliant on
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
using query parameters.
----- Original Message -----
Cc: "Tapestry Contrib"
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 10:34 AM
[Tapestry-developer] Tapestry and
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
RSS
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
While I don't think my opinion should count for
much on this. I am in
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
the URL control crowd.
Take a look at what Cocoon does with its sitemap
(xml.apache.org/cocoon).
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
URLs are pretty important in some companies and
Can be a powerful tool
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
for usability.
-Andy
i'm reposting this, as it never made it to the
list :)
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:46:12 -0500,
hi,
i don't know if i count as a "user" but i do
like short urls, that tell
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
about the structure of a site's information. i
like it when i can easily
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
navigate around if i get a 404 (ok, linkrot is
bad too, but it's a fact
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
of life). or jump straight to something i know
is there, but have not
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
bookmarked it (eg. i can jump to the javadoc of
java.lang.String without
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
having it bookmarked, or even bringing up the
page)...
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
as a site-builder, i like nice urls that i can
send out in an email
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
without it breaking (less than 80 chars) on
certain mail readers... or
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
print on a piece of paper and a user can type it
in... simple urls make
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
log analysis easier too.
call me weird, but other's share my opinion -
here's a couple of links
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990321.html
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/web/library/us-cranky8.html?dwzone=w
eb
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.bohmann.dk/articles/making_urls_predictable.html
i think ugly urls are against the spirit of the
original concept - use
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
them if you have no other option...
http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html
or take your mailing address for example - yeah,
it could be
Microsoft Way, Redmond,
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
WA
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
98052, USA" still looks better to me :)
viktor
On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 19:07:59 +0000,
I double-dog dare you to find me a user (I mean
an end user, not a
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
client
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
who
think s/he knows "what user's want") ... find
me a user that actually
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
cares
about the URLs.
They might care if they can't bookmark a URL
and come back later. They
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
might
care if the URL is broken. But I double-dog
dare you to find me a user
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
that
cares about the difference between
"/products/food/fruit/apple" and
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
"/app?
service=catalog&amp;sp=food&amp;sp=fruit&amp;sp=apple".
We're not
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
talking
telegrams here; nobody's paying by the letter
(well, maybe on WAP).
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
The only difference is that users of the
Tapestry app will be less
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
inclined to
second guess the URL construction by manually
hacking the URL, and
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
therefore
less likely to be frustrated when it doesn't
work.
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
Also, the fact that users are trying to second
guess and circumvent
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
your
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
application means that your app has a
usuability problem ... and it
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
isn't
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
the
format of your URLs.
You Are Not Your Users.
--
--
http://fastmail.fm - The professional email
service
Post by Howard M. Lewis Ship
-------------------------------------------------------
Post by Andrew C. Oliver
This SF.NET email is sponsored by: Order your
Holiday Geek Presents Now!
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Scot Doyle
2002-12-19 15:55:04 UTC
Permalink
Oops, please ignore the paragraph that talks about the
two key points...
Post by Scot Doyle
Now, there are two key points about this form of
URL.
A) It looks like a stateless URL so all search
engines
will crawl it and record it. B)
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